Curse

Xzodia Omaega · Feb 24, 2009, 01:23 PM // 13:23

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~
My purpose of this thread is to try to get enough votes for anet to possibly do something about it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

Who uses Mark of Protection? WHO EVER used that skill to begin with. Its useless. The same with alot of the older elites in general. Same goes for Martyr? Etc Im using prot attribute as an example here just to make a point.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What would the rest of the guildwars world gain from an ELITE revamp?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To be honest looking at this in the most negative way possible I CRAVE to have some more interesting things done with regards to the prot attrib.
Maybe I'm looking for something different and interesting.

But on the best side possible, trying to keep Guildwars "Guild wars". I love the game for its complexity, endless build possibilities. However i personally think that, in this instance, it is being squandered by the overpowering nature of "HEALING PRAYERS" Maybe just their ease of use?

If it comes to my opinion i personally think healing prayers should be made a little less powerful and prot prayers more useful, which would in turn help ease the "HBmonk" spam in all high end areas, and keep things interesting.

But this isnt my point

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I ask you all, do you think that something could or should be done to make some of the "prot" elites worth while? Even if for the sake of making things interesting?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

IF YOU DO AGREE and think that the useless elites could be made more interesting, How? Maybe post your own skill ideas. In the case of Prot prayers Perhaps having some form of energy management? What would you replace, with what and why.

For Example:
Mark of protection: For 8 seconds, the next time you take damage, that damage is halved and you gain 1-13 energy. You shadow step to a nearby location. Self Target only Energy: 5, Cast time: 1/4, recharge: 15

(Please bear in mind that im not talking about nerfing anything, only making an attribute not only more interesting but actually USABLE)

((P.S obviously hybrids are an exception, but you will find that 90% of those are mostly heal side heavy AND no elites are used))

Sorry, now that i have actually explained myself instead of rambled on about useless crap and over exagerating to make a point you might all gain some use out of this post.

Lusciious · Feb 24, 2009, 01:42 PM // 13:42

yeah, that was what i was thinking too.

look, WoH + PS + Vig spirit + Spotless > ZB + RoF + 7 seconds guardian.

guardian can be easily countered by a simple enchant removal or switching to another target. it might even backfire if someone uses defile defences on you.

what im trying to prove is healing prayers is way more OP compared to protection prayers. but heres the thing, say its the first time you played GW, and someone talks to you about protection prayer. what would come into your mind first ? protecting. protecting means negating damage, and to PREVENT damage. you/someone don't think of healing when you/someone talks to a newcomer about protection prayer. most of the elites in the protection attribute does what its supposed to do. preventing and negating damage.

i'm not support any sides. all i think is that healing prayers are way too good compared to protection prayers. with 5 in protection prayers, you can already get a 4 second long guardian which could help healing monks prevent some damage but with 5 in healing prayers, you cant heal shit with any healing skills. gift of health wouldn't heal much either. get what i'm trying to say ?

moriz · Feb 24, 2009, 02:06 PM // 14:06

prot and heal are on rough parity now. before prot was infinitely more powerful than heal. even today, most monk builds will still have around three prot spells at the very least. if you take self defense/energy skills into accoun (typically there are two on each bar), then prot covers half of a typical monk's spell list.

zwei2stein · Feb 24, 2009, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xzodia Omaega

Who uses Mark of Protection? WHO EVER used that skill to begin with. Its useless.

I used that to farm. I use that to farm. I would be pissed if it was changed.

[Morkai] · Feb 24, 2009, 02:45 PM // 14:45

lolryan.

Tbh in PvE hybrids dominate over single attribute bars anyway.

The reason they haven't been changed is because they're seen as "balanced". Sure there are only a few Elites that actually see play, but this is the case with all attributes.

For example in PvE for say Swordsmanship. [Dragon Slash] and [Hundred Blades] are used, nothing much else. I'm just failing to see why you think it's only Protection that has been singled out. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

To further my point even more, sure, Healing Prayers does dominate, but you can't mitigate every single packet of damage that comes through your team, it's impractical and quite frankly rather bad to even try to do so.

I've always seen Prot as an attribute you can spec into for some of the few skills actually worth one of my eight slots, to compliment a bar.

Though i do agree that maybe it needes a little more diversity in the attribute.

In PvP, certain elites are utilized more than others because they do the job the best. [Restore Condition] for example, is a staple of any balanced 8 man build. You can rival the skill with other options, [Peace and Harmony] and [Life Sheath] have been recent contenders (though PnH is DF). But if you make a few more elites equal to RC, then what's the point, apart from changing skill icons?

Overall I can see why you'd think it may need expanding, but your reasons aren't really solid imo.

laksa and curry · Feb 24, 2009, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xzodia Omaega

[B]
LF HB MONK ANYTHING ELSE IS NOOB. and so that there is more reason to have a prot heavy bar.

))[/U][/I]

Its the same with the warrior profession, a hammer warrior with earth shaker elite will be mocked and laughed at. People expect warriors to spam DS, any other builds will draw flak.

WOH hybrids get a lot of rejection too. I cant understand why so many insist in HB and even if the team fails the HB monk are not blamed, but if you run WOH hybrid you will get cursed.

zling · Feb 24, 2009, 03:18 PM // 15:18

well, from a PvE's prespective Protection Prayers will never be as attractive as Healing Prayers because PuGs are stupid thus require brainless builds. spamming healing skills on recharge while under HB is as brainless as it gets. prots could do it better? sure, if you know what the hell you're doing, which most PuG monks dont...

from a PvP's prespective nobody leaves home without a Prot Monk, or well, a Hybrid in most cases. WoH and ZB(shouldnt be in Prot but that's a different subject) with a few prots, hex removal and condi removal are dominant in arenas and in GvG. in HA it's RC/LS(pure prot) and HB(pure heal) with the odd PnH as a 3rd monk.

however you've missed the problem with prot prayers. the problem is not neccessarily the elites, as SoD for example does it's job very well, it's just that nobody takes it any more for various reasons. it's too easy to fit a few cheap prots on a Hybrid bar, and be very effective with it. see WoH/ZB comment from the above paragraph. also the RC, while a perfectly fine and valid build shows a different aspect of the problem, the elite itself is a mass condition removal! the role of the RC monks is first of all to combat conditions, than put up AoS and a few prots here and there. if the RC prot is really good it can even catch some spikes with SB.

the main problem with the prot line is that it isnt good enough to stand by itself. first of all you can never negate 100% of the damage. second of all prots are easy to avoid, be it enchantment removal, anti block hexes like MoI and Rigor Mortis or simple target swapping. for these reasons you'll always need this tool to "push red bars up". moreover there are more attractive options nowadays such as WoW, SoR and other unremovable skills, be it weapon spells, shouts, chants or whatever.

so enough of my rambling, prots are still powerful and a key part to any 8 man backline, however it's role has been weakened thus it needs a lot of support around it to be as effective as it used to be.

Wish Swiftdeath · Feb 24, 2009, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Not really, there are still lots of great skills in prot which always find a place on my bar.

Just don't be bad and use HB

kostolomac · Feb 24, 2009, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Apart from some crappy elites (which attribute doesn't have crappy elites?), protection magic is one of the best attributes for support if we don't take ["Save Yourselves!"] in consideration.

MasterSasori · Feb 24, 2009, 03:44 PM // 15:44

No, I don't imagine Protection Prayers nearly as weak as you think.

RoF, PS, SB, Guardian, Dismiss, Mending Touch, RC, and SoA see alot of play.

Some of the best monks I know still use ZB.

Healing Prayers is just easier to use and therefore everyone hops onto the HB Heal party bandwagon and thus Prot prayers look weaker since no one is using it.

The common day monk philosophy is Red Bars Up and not how its supposed to be: proting.

Lourens · Feb 24, 2009, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Protection Prayer is far more powerful then healing prayers Imo ,

Healing prayers alone wont save you from a coordinated spike

O and btw this thread needs to be moved to Sardelac Sanctum...

laksa and curry · Feb 24, 2009, 04:17 PM // 16:17

To add on, Protective spirit is the 1st skill on any build my monk uses. Unless in build specific area or assign specific task by group leader.

Improvavel · Feb 24, 2009, 04:33 PM // 16:33

No, protections is quite fine.

Only recently with the [[Light of deliverance] (pre nerf) and now with the buff of [[Word of healing] is healing prayers of any use.

Long time ago, the GOOD monk bars were [[mantra of recall] or [[energy drain], [[divine boon] protection prayer monks or [[life barrier]/[[life bond] monks.

glacialphoenix · Feb 24, 2009, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

That there needs to be something done to make the prot attribute more attractive so that people arnt screaming out LF HB MONK ANYTHING ELSE IS NOOB.

You realise that this is mostly done by uninformed players who have no idea how prot works. And like someone said, WoH hybrids get rejected, too. I don't think it's that Healing Prayers are overpowering, merely that people react to what they can see. They don't see damage negated, but they see red bars going up. Therefore, they appreciate Healing Prayers better. Hence the HB craze.

This does not make prot weaker. It DOES make it underappreciated.

Quote:

RoF, PS, SB, Guardian, Dismiss, Mending Touch, RC, and SoA see alot of play.

This.

MithranArkanere · Feb 24, 2009, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Yeah. A Healing Monk cannot do anything about the strongest spikes without someone negating damage.

Wubbies · Feb 24, 2009, 06:02 PM // 18:02

i think u need to be more specific because it depends on the area u want to monk. if u are in hm or an elite area and are used to prevent a spike thats one thing or do u want to cover (heal) everyone. i believe it also depends on the parties builds they are using. If you are doing HM fow or Doa u have a Warrior Ob Tank you would want a bonder not healer for that tank.

i dont believe in making protection more powerful than healing ..thats unblanaced. i beleve that some elites and skills in general suck on both healing and protection. however as someone stated LS and ZB are pretty awsome.

if protection suked so bad why can a protect monk typically tank better than a heal monk? ( i feel some hot flames heading my way )

Basically imo i dont agree with healing is more powerful than healing.. depends on the application

JASON626 · Feb 24, 2009, 07:30 PM // 19:30

You have to sort out this discussion between the diffrent pve areas and and diffrent pvp areas. They require diffrent setups typically.

Ya going in the Deep elite mission they want HB monks which is boring. You get a BiP plus glyph of lesser and push button heal party. Then you have 600 monk for farming/running missions using spirit bond to heal himself while keeping shield of absorption on to negate ongoing damage.

PvP gvg and HA require some mixing. Identifying which skill to use, reading the enemy. Not just looking at red bar party list healing it when you can look at the person and see what type of damage is being dealt.

Xzodia Omaega · Feb 24, 2009, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

No, I don't imagine Protection Prayers nearly as weak as you think.

Healing Prayers is just easier to use and therefore everyone hops onto the HB Heal party bandwagon and thus Prot prayers look weaker since no one is using it.

The common day monk philosophy is Red Bars Up and not how its supposed to be: proting.

This goes for everybody who thinks im trying to say prot prayers is WEAK I think its by far one of the strongest, which is why im asking for a few of the elites to be considered for revisiting.

What you said about the fact that hb is easier to play mixed with the fact that monks are probably one of the most played proffs might have something to do with why i feel that the attribs getting neglected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath

Not really, there are still lots of great skills in prot which always find a place on my bar.

Just don't be bad and use HB

Of course, protection rules which is why im asking for a few skills to be revisited.

Quote:

Originally Posted by laksa and curry

WOH hybrids get a lot of rejection too. I cant understand why so many insist in HB and even if the team fails the HB monk are not blamed, but if you run WOH hybrid you will get cursed.

Thats when you rage obscene words and tell them to uninstall gw.
However thats not my point

Quote:

Originally Posted by [Morkai]

lolryan.

Overall I can see why you'd think it may need expanding, but your reasons aren't really solid imo.

Then let me explain in a different way. "Some of the useless elites should be revisited and changed for something that could be used as an alternative to always ending up with a healing elite on your bar"

Also read what i said before, something like "maybe i just want to see something interesting"

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

I used that to farm. I use that to farm. I would be pissed if it was changed.

Other than being an irrelivant and unhelpful comment, you would not only be amongst a .001 percent of the guild wars population that does use it.
It was to be made example of. Ultimately its a completely useless skill, feel free to tell me how you can use this skill even for farming When you have HB/WoH/ZB/RoJ ETC ETC?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

yeah, that was what i was thinking too.

look, WoH + PS + Vig spirit + Spotless > ZB + RoF + 7 seconds guardian.

guardian can be easily countered by a simple enchant removal or switching to another target. it might even backfire if someone uses defile defences on you.
...
protecting means negating damage, and to PREVENT damage.

I understand you completely, and your right ZB is very good. However again, swinging back to the point of useless elites and skills and also correcting you.
"Protection means to prevent damage"? In my opinion this is too vauge a concept to use for guildwars because of its complexity.
Heres a few new applications. "Protection of energy" (Perhaps acually having a skill in the monk portfolio that directly affects energy gain.)
Or protection against stacking effects? such as shouts and chants, or weapon effects?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lourens

Protection Prayer is far more powerful then healing prayers Imo ,

Healing prayers alone wont save you from a coordinated spike

Neither will a monk that cant pre-prot, again though your missing my point, sorry for a bad explanaition.

MY POINT: Revisit the useless elites to make things a little more interesting prot side wise. Plus your talking about pvp, in which prot is still the attribute of kings anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wubbies

i think u need to be more specific

Lol, it seems your right. So let me just re explain.

The useless elites should be revisited and changed to make things more applicable to the current state of guild wars.

Come on guys im not talking about the things that are allready useful or that are HALF useful. Im talking about redesigning skills so that they can actually be used.
Im not saying REBALANCE EVERYTHING - My opinion was that healing prayers was more favoured. JUST my opinion.
Im saying to revamp the skills that are never used. In this case i applied it to prot prayers. I do not think this an unsound or unsolid opinion

Either way i hope the majority understand what im getting at now.

Another thing i just thought about was: Think back to Proph days. we didnt have so many shouts, weapon spells spirit effects, echos and so on.
do you think we should have prot skills that negate/remove some of these effects?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lourens

O and btw this thread needs to be moved to Sardelac Sanctum...

And the reason this WAS in the monk section was because it applied to a MONK attribute. You could all apply this to another proffession whereby old skills just need changing to keep "up to date with the current guildwars"

REMEMBER IM NOT SAYING ANYTHING IS WEAKER

Xzodia Omaega · Feb 24, 2009, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by JASON626

You have to sort out this discussion between the diffrent pve areas and and diffrent pvp areas. They require diffrent setups typically.

Ya going in the Deep elite mission they want HB monks which is boring. You get a BiP plus glyph of lesser and push button heal party. Then you have 600 monk for farming/running missions using spirit bond to heal himself while keeping shield of absorption on to negate ongoing damage.

PvP gvg and HA require some mixing. Identifying which skill to use, reading the enemy. Not just looking at red bar party list healing it when you can look at the person and see what type of damage is being dealt.

With this regards i think that some of the prot skills could be ustilised better now that they have the pve/pvp skill system setup

Lets again use Mark of Protection as an example. Let me reiterate AS AN EXAMPLE as i find the skill practically useless in every way.

Mark of Protection (PvE) For 1-10 seconds all allies within earshot can only take damage equivilent to 7% of their maximum health. Enchantment. Energy: 10, Cast time: 2, Recharge 30

Mark of Protection (PvP) For 3 seconds damage caused by spells heal target ally for the same amount. Maximum 13-68 Energy:10, Cast time: 1/4, Recharge: 10

Hopefully now you all understand where im coming from? "Revamping useless elites"

Another example:

Martyr: (PvE) Creates a level 1-10 spirit that lives for 17...130 seconds. Each condition and hex that allies would take are negated, spirit takes 60-30 health loss for each one negated. Cost: 15, Cast time 5, Recharge: 45
Martyr: (PvP) Creates a level.... spirit that lives for... Environmental effects, spirits, weapon effects and shouts that would stack damage or cause conditions are negated. Etc

spirit of defeat · Feb 24, 2009, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xzodia Omaega

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~
My purpose of this thread is to try to get enough votes for anet to possibly do something about it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

As a Rit Who has viewed many topics on Spawning power. I say no.
And Spawning power is more broken then Protection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xzodia Omaega

Martyr: (PvE) Creates a level 1-10 spirit that lives for 17...130 seconds. Each condition and hex that allies would take are negated, spirit takes 60-30 health loss for each one negated. Cost: 15, Cast time 5, Recharge: 45
Martyr: (PvP) Creates a level.... spirit that lives for... Environmental effects, spirits, weapon effects and shouts that would stack damage or cause conditions are negated. Etc

And monks summoning spirits?
And removing both hexes and conditions :S

FAIL